America's Cup - Huskytalk.com

**trevor** · 09-01-13

Guys I never said the AC should be in standard boats I just said there was lots of fast boats out there and cat sailing if you want to watch it.

The AC45s IMHO is just another saling series and has nothing what so ever to do with the Americas Cup. It's a side show, even if a very well done one (I will be up at 6am tomorrow to watch the youths).

It's always up to the defender to decide the boats used, and they need to be boats that can match race rather then drag race. You just can't have close match racing in the AC72, but I would love to be proved wrong!

**richarde1605** · 09-01-13

I used to love watching one boat steal the others wind, you could see it in the sails. The close tactical race is like onthewater chess.

**stephen** · 09-01-13

Sunday and still no word on the Oracle decision. Something has to happen, one way or the other, before next Saturday. In the Sunday SF Chronicle, there is a complete section of the paper on the America's Cup. It was interesting to hear that Russell Coutts received several death threats after leaving New Zealand for the Swiss and Allinghi. He travelled with body guards for 6 months.

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-02-13

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancis...nt?oid=2563023

Still waiting.....

**richarde1605** · 09-02-13

Interesting comments here about the processes that lead up to this position, I bet Oracle wish they hadn't pushed quite so hard for some of their demands, ie. changing the rope specification to one strong enough to hang them.

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/...p--Jury/113912

Grant Dalton's crystal ball was clear.

**richarde1605** · 09-02-13

And longer too, Oracle's king posts were longer as well, come on this is just getting harder and harder to believe that no one knew...

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americ...-ruckus/113661

**stephen** · 09-02-13

Richard 1605, the articles posted were excellent. Keep it up.

Is anyone following the AC 45 Junior Sailing that is going on? I have not been watching it.

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-02-13

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/New-Zealands-$350-million-role-in-the-2013-Americas-Cup/113692

NZ have already reaped huge rewards via the AC45 and 72 campaign..... That kind of flies in the face of the detractors of the government contribution.

**IanA** · 09-02-13

Trying hard not to be disappointed with the first Oz results in the Juniors.. gear failure stuffed them up completely. I suspect CIA involvment but can't quite prove it - yet..

**trevor** · 09-02-13

Just watching the Youths on-line (TVNZ show it on the interweb).

Your heart has to go out to Aus. they code 0 halyard failed again. This time they were leading. I'll check tonight on regress.

Oh and Stephen the bodyguard thing is bullshit. All part of "The Cup".

FYI: Alinghi was going have all sorts of rules and really wanted to control the cup. Larry did the event a favour taking off them. They had rules like "the defender can change the rules at anytime".

Dunny would have liked us ramming the French

Results are here:- http://www.americascup.com/en/results-standings

Boy is it close!

And I have to go to Aus. tomorrow and Thursday so won't be able to watch it - Bugger!

**trevor** · 09-02-13

Originally Posted by richarde1605

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/New-Zealands-$350-million-role-in-the-2013-Americas-Cup/113692

NZ have already reaped huge rewards via the AC45 and 72 campaign..... That kind of flies in the face of the detractors of the government contribution.

Yep.

ETNZ alone have paid something like $24M in PAYE (income tax). And then there is all the PAYE of the guys who built the AC45s. That and the fact that every team is using a Protector RIB http://rayglass.co.nz/protector and with 4 x 300 horse on the back these are close to $200,000 each!

**trevor** · 09-02-13

Originally Posted by richarde1605

Well played Luna Rossa well played indeed.

The Italians are real gentlemen

http://tvnz.co.nz/americas-cup-blog/...abours-5551718

"Back at base, the Kiwis pronounced themselves pleased with some new "fruit" they've installed - a carbon-fibre foredeck replacing the netting under the jib and some weird-looking square spoilers on the rear beam to improve air flow.
But they were particularly effusive in their thanks to Luna Rossa. It is a hugely magnanimous gesture by the Italians, not to mention a very expensive one.
Any time an AC72 puts to sea, some 50 people have to be employed, not to mention the cost of running the fleet of support boats and fixing any repairs. It goes to show how keen Prada boss Patriozio Bertelli is to see the America's Cup go back to New Zealand and away from Oracle."

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

I view them as ETANZ as we are not in it, but perhaps it should be ETANZLR or ETLRANZ......

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

So what are the thoughts on penalties?

"The second season of the AC World Series also sees the challengers for the 34th America’s Cup collect points towards a Louis Vuitton Ranking which will confer an advantage at the beginning of the Louis Vuitton Cup in July 2013." AC website.

Seeing how the 'holder' sets the rules. Are the 'holders' exempt from the rules?

Best of 17, hmm. At the least Oracle should be 'fined' 6 race points, but they should have to sail in each of those races, if they don't sail, two points would be awarded to the challenger. Which should stop sandbagging, just saying....

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

Old news, but sums up the BS in the Cup.

The Oracle racing team may have finally done the impossible - not win the America's Cup in a competition designed to attract a new generation of enthusiasts, but turn people off to sailboat racing.

This week the team was caught cheating.

It's been well documented that Oracle, the team that can't sail straight, has turned the America's Cup into a poorly attended bluegrass festival. We've already talked about how the promise of the Cup, majestic boats racing each other over the green waters of the bay, devolved to a single sailboat, "competing" alone, and then holding a press conference to discuss the "victory."

We've supported the races in the Bay Area. The city of San Francisco has poured money and facilities into the extravaganza, and we were promised a global showcase, an international event.

Instead we got Alex Rodriguez - using illegal substances to gain an unfair advantage.

Every time it seemed like there was hope that the Cup fanfare might be catching fire, Larry Ellison's Oracle syndicate has been there with a bucket of cold bay water to put it out.

During the last week, I actually heard people saying, "You know, I went down to the Cup races, and I have to admit those boats are amazing."

There was a flicker of a chance that after all the bickering, the terrible tragedy of the deadly Artemis crash, and the general public malaise about the event, that actual races between competitive boats might turn this around.

Perhaps a little nationalism might kick in when we got to the finals - the good old Oracle Team USA against those crafty Kiwis. (New Zealand hasn't officially been declared a finalist, but no one who has been paying attention expects anything else.)

Now it turns out the home team was cheating. And no, admitting that they used illegal weights doesn't qualify as an excuse. When racing syndicate head Russell Coutts said that the additions - probably used to keep the bow of the boat down in light air - were done without the knowledge of management, the excuse was far-fetched at best.

The entire Oracle operation is tightly controlled. The idea that a rogue worker sneaked on the boat and placed the performance-enhancing weights in exactly the right place (and on three different boats) without the higher-ups knowing is ridiculous.

As New Zealand team leader Grant Dalton told The Chronicle, "You can't actually get to any other point than that they were cheating. If it didn't actually make any difference, why do it?"

And by the way, cheating is one thing, but there's no excuse for being so sloppy. Handing the boats over for official measurement with the incriminating evidence still in the bow is just dumb. Ellison is said to be livid, and for good reason.

Now surely, the international jury isn't going to throw the defending champion out of the finals. It is much more likely that it will make Oracle forfeit some races. There's millions of dollars at stake, not to mention the prestige of the most revered trophy in the history of sailing.

And the shame of it is, this was a good idea. Putting the races on the bay, where they can be seen by everyone, was a sensational thought. The TV graphics and the interactive phone apps have been riveting.

But this has been one embarrassing screw-up after another. The 72-foot boats were too big and too dangerous. Only four of the predicted 15 teams are participating. The grand plan for San Francisco has left the city wondering how much it will get back of the $22 million it invested.

And Oracle, which is now claiming it would never stoop to cheating, has been caught doing so twice. (The first was earlier in the year when Oracle was fined and docked practice time for spying on teams in New Zealand).

But just think, if Oracle should win after all this, the race could be back in San Francisco next time.

You know what they say about that in City Hall?

Go New Zealand.

C.W. Nevius is a San Francisco Chronicle columnist. His columns appear Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. E-mail: cwnevius@sfchronicle.com Twitter: @cwnevius

**trevor** · 09-03-13

Jury Verdict!

-2 points
$250,000
one sailor totally banned (Dirk de Ridder) and Matt Mitchell banned for four races.

Only the -2 will worry them!

Larry has earnt $250,000 whilst I type this

**stephen** · 09-03-13

That seems to be an insignificant slap on the wrist. If Oracle is faster, it should not change the outcome. Only if they are very evenly matched should it be an issue. If ETNZ is faster, it will not change the outcome. Any thoughts?

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

I think that 'fine' brings the 'Cup' into disrepute.....

**stephen** · 09-03-13

I read somewhere that the crew member, Dutch I believe, who was banned was the wing trimmer. That seems significant to me.

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

Don't forget that they have a 'spare' wing trimmer and also 'spare' grinders and shore crew....

**stephen** · 09-03-13

Are these guys interchangeable, or is the backup guy not quite as good? I also read somewhere today that Oracle employs 130 people. I am sure that Ainsle's (sp) is available, they have two boats.

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

But at least it upsets the last minute preparations, and the new trimmer has to gel with new team mates in short order and of course the #2 boat will not be as well crewed, so they may not be as good for last minute practice.

**stephen** · 09-03-13

I can not wait for Saturday. Are the banned racers forbidden on the second boat for practice?

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

Me too..

**stephen** · 09-03-13

Has oracle announced which boat they will use?

Does the penalty for Oracle mean that there could be no winner? Would Oracle keep the Cup if ETNZ does not get to 9 wins? If that is the case, there is still no penalty.

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-03-13

The cheats will have to decide to leave the crew intact on their #2 boat and race that instead, or swap guys around. The banned guys could probably be on the other boat, as to me it seems they can't take part in the AC and I don't know if practice counts. Someone will win, best of seventeen series, so 9 wins for ETANZ or 11 for DEBORACLE

**stephen** · 09-03-13

If Oracle wins 9 of 17 races, gets penalized 2 races, ETNZ would have 8 wins and Oracle 7. Neither would have 9. Does ETNZ win with 8? Do they add races? Or is there no winner and Oracle retains the Cup?

If Oracle wins 10 races, gets penalized 2 races, they would have 8 wins and ETNZ would have 7. Would Oracle win with less than 9 wins.

It sounds like they will change to a 19 race format with Oracle needing 11 and ETNZ needing 9 wins. Or it could be a 17 race format with Oracle needing 10 and ETNZ needing 8 wins.

Stephen

**IanA** · 09-04-13

I've run out of fingers trying to work it out. To much book larnin' , you guys!

**trevor** · 09-04-13

Originally Posted by stephen

If Oracle wins 9 of 17 races, gets penalized 2 races, ETNZ would have 8 wins and Oracle 7. Neither would have 9. Does ETNZ win with 8? Do they add races? Or is there no winner and Oracle retains the Cup?

Stephen

It's still the best of 17 races, 1 point for a win 0 for a loose, they start on -2 points.

So Oracle could win 9 and ETNZ win 8 races, but the points would be 7 and 8.

Effectively we need to win 8 races instead of 9, they need to win 11 races.

**stephen** · 09-05-13

It seems like Oracle needs to win 10 races, minus 2 would make it 8 to ETNZ's 7. Before the penalty, Oracle needed 9 wins to keep the Cup. After the penalty they need 10 wins. With 10 Oracle wins, the most ETNZ can win is 7.

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-05-13

But Oracle need to win the first two just to get to zero. I just did a quick pencil and paper 'spreadsheet' and realised that the zero position still is a number, It's bloody confusing....

It's almost like a best of fifteen..... with seventeen races

**stephen** · 09-05-13

That is what it sounds like.

If they toss the first 2 Oracle wins, then count 17 races, the total races would be 19 with 9 wins taking the Cup. I am not sure they even know what is going on.

Just because they have more money than God, that does not mean they are smart.

Stephen

**richarde1605** · 09-05-13

If we give oracle the first two, fifteen races to go both on zero pionts, so first to eight from there wins? ETANZLR need eight. And deboracle need ten to win. Less of a penalty than it seems???

**richarde1605** · 09-05-13

As long as etlnanz score a point in the tenth race, and come home with wet sails, they win..

**trevor** · 09-06-13

Aint maths fun

The commentators keep saying we need to win 9 races (half of 17 +1) which is wrong, because......

Lets say we are on 7 points and they are on -2 points after the first 7 races
that means there are 10 races left
Oracle could therefore then win 8-7 if they won the next 10 races.

Lets say we are on 6 points and they are on 6 points after the first 14 races
that means there are 3 races left, but we've won 6 and they won 8 races
whoever wins 2 of these 3 races wins, they only then need 8 points to win or 10 races.

But lets say we win one each the then points are 7-7 and the races 7-9 we need to win 8 races (8 points) they need to win 11 races (9 points)

Don't confuse the number of races with the number of points, you have to be clear which you are talking about. I expect the commentators to start working this out over the next week. You know they just love stats in sport in the USA

Still confused?

**stephen** · 09-06-13

Enough speculation, let us race.

Stephen

**trevor** · 09-06-13

one sleep to go.....

**stephen** · 09-07-13

I expect in a walkover by either team that they will race to 9 wins (11 for Oracle).

It is 9:25 AM local time. I just finished a 1 and 1/2 hour bike ride along the SF Bay. The water was like glass, no waves. As of now, there is not enough wind to race.

Stephen

**trevor** · 09-07-13

min speed is 3 knots.

And I've got up early on a Sunday to watch it.

Coverage on TV just starting.

I'm glued virtual eye and TV on at the same time

**trevor** · 09-07-13

Looks like 15 knots by this afternoon.

NZ TV just talking to "clouds" ETNZ's weather man.

10mins to go.......

Chris Dixon on NZTV just said we still need to win 9 races -- interesting..

LIVE COVERAGE...... Bye

**trevor** · 09-07-13

Great Start by Dean. Take that! 16 konts of breeze

We have a boat race!

Fist cross f- too close! No light!! 4 second at mark 2: Jimmy makes us tack away - bugger!

Jimmy is trying real hard. Looks like Jimmy has the power of the right.

MATCH RACING AT LAST!!!!!!

We win upwind: Mark 3: we've 25 second in the lead. Who said we would be slower upwind! 400+ metres in the lead, looks like we have race 1 won. Just need to finish. 34 seconds at mark 4.

We WIN! by 36 seconds.

We've got the fastest boat. Need a coffee to calm down - that was stressful.

**stephen** · 09-07-13

This is incredible.

Stephen

**trevor** · 09-07-13

Q: Jimmy what will you do different in the next race?

A: Well win it would be a good idea.

Great Aussie answer to a really stupid question

**trevor** · 09-07-13

This is less stressful.

By Bye Oracle....

**stephen** · 09-07-13

Will you even keep watching?

Is it too early to start a World Cup thread?

Stephen

**trevor** · 09-07-13

You kidding?

Most employers are expecting employees either in early to watch in the office or come in after the race finishes.

4-0 (effectively)

Anyway off to keep practicing for the Blokart worlds in Feb. 14 knots and building here. Got some new sails that I'm struggling with they are cut differently and slower than my old sails at present (don't tell the accounts dept.

)

**richarde1605** · 09-07-13

Well it appears 'ours' is the faster boat, and 'our' team a little more polished. Could this be curtains for Oracle?
I realise it is early days, but it does not bode well for TUSA.
Both teams sailed a tighter line in the second race, but a 1.5 knot advantage was the tale of the tape... Box on...

@ Trevor, I find it a bit ironic that your faster sails are still in the US, and no worries, mum's the word.

**IanA** · 09-07-13

Starting to grate a little, hearing all the American commentators talking about "our Jimmy" an "our Tom" - when there is hardly an Northern Hemisphere accent amongst the regular interviewees. I might have to watch the rest of the show with the sound turned down.
But, watch it I will.... ain't it just fabulous! My bucket list used to include a ride in a F111 or a Phantom , now I think it just has to be one of these thingys.

**stephen** · 09-07-13

I was planning to go to the first 2 races. I am glad I didn't, what a mob. I am not a mob guy. Might try to get over Wednesday. Sunday I will be watching later in the day. Sunday is opening day for the 49er's (American football), the AC and your normal Sunday SF madness. No way I will go in.

Enjoy the rest of the races, New Zealand has earned it.

Stephen

**trevor** · 09-08-13

Ok Grant confirmed the scoring onj the radio today.

We need 9 wins.
Oracle need 11 wins.

So in theory there could be 19 races.

And who wants to bet against Larry going to court straight after when they loose. I hope it's 9-0 as it will make him look stupid if he does.

Grant said we will race in monohulls next time if we win.

I also think we will bring back the nationality rules because (Grant was cagey).

Why?

1. It will stop what Alinghi did and steal all of ETNZ sailors.
2. It will really f'off Larry

Roll on tomorrow......

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