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    A link in the Hydrogen Highway is being built across from Alice's Restaurant in the Santa Cruz Mountains, south of San Francisco. What a monumental boondoggle! I have heard that there are just a few H2 cars in all of California and I believe all of those are production prototypes being tested by the auto manufacturers. I am pretty sure that none are privately owned at this time. However, should anyone in the SF Bay Area buy an H2-powered auto, they can always drive up into the mountains to find a filling station, which is being built at great expense by some government agency using taxpayer funds. This complex has been under construction all summer long and is now reaching the point where some of the equipment is being installed. Attached are photos that I took today and I will post updates as the construction continues until the project is complete and the security fencing is removed. All that equipment just to supply one filling outlet. I have my doubts if I will ever be able to post a hydrogen-powered car filling up at this out-of-the-way station.
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    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    Ah, the factor of progress. LIke the bullet train to nowhere!

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    I've always thoughts that to fill a tank of a H2 car was enough to open the water tap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by notacop View Post
    Ah, the factor of progress. LIke the bullet train to nowhere!
    the italians are unbeatable in making white elephants... we built also hospitals that nobody uses.

    in a first time I was astonished to see how much wood is used to build a gas station (extremely dangerous, I thought)... then I realized that there is no gas in that station, but water.
    "putenza du gibbiuni!" dissi u sceccu quannu vitti u mari... ("what a big pool!" said the donkey when has seen the sea...)

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    Richard230's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guidoveloce View Post
    the italians are unbeatable in making white elephants... we built also hospitals that nobody uses.

    in a first time I was astonished to see how much wood is used to build a gas station (extremely dangerous, I thought)... then I realized that there is no gas in that station, but water.
    I have my doubts that all of that wood will be part of the H2 station. I suspect it is just expensive scaffolding that is needed to install and build the equipment necessary to crack the water, pressurize the gas and operate the station. I do kind of wonder what they do with the oxygen that is also produced, though. I hope they don't vent it near the hydrogen filling pump.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard230 View Post
    I have my doubts that all of that wood will be part of the H2 station. I suspect it is just expensive scaffolding that is needed to install and build the equipment necessary to crack the water, pressurize the gas and operate the station. I do kind of wonder what they do with the oxygen that is also produced, though. I hope they don't vent it near the hydrogen filling pump.
    I very seriously doubt H2 is being made at this site. Breaking water into H2 and O2 via electrolysis consumes more energy than what one gets from the resulting H2. This is Chemistry 101, must put energy in to pull them apart, get less energy out letting them recombine. That is why most H2 is made from natural gas. An Inconvienient Truth green advocates ignore.
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    I agree, Dave.
    There's always energy losses involved in any conversion from one state to another.

    Even Hydro power stations have losses when making electricity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N4HHE View Post
    I very seriously doubt H2 is being made at this site. Breaking water into H2 and O2 via electrolysis consumes more energy than what one gets from the resulting H2. This is Chemistry 101, must put energy in to pull them apart, get less energy out letting them recombine. That is why most H2 is made from natural gas. An Inconvienient Truth green advocates ignore.
    Well, if the H2 is going to be trucked via diesel-powered big rigs into the mountains to supply the station so that it can fill vehicles that are "zero polluting and just exhale water" (according to TV news reports), that is really not going to be very environmentally friendly, is it?
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    Ah, but it looks good to the greenies to be using hydrogen, which only emits water out the exhaust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve n rose View Post
    Ah, but it looks good to the greenies to be using hydrogen, which only emits water out the exhaust.
    Yes, myopia, near-sightedness. H2 in fuel cells is undeniably wonderful if that was the whole picture. Same for the fools errand known as ethanol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard230 View Post
    Well, if the H2 is going to be trucked via diesel-powered big rigs into the mountains to supply the station so that it can fill vehicles that are "zero polluting and just exhale water" (according to TV news reports), that is really not going to be very environmentally friendly, is it?
    Doesn't seem to matter. The important thing is, "Do something, anything, no matter it makes things worse because everyone knows Oil Is Evil".

    Ethanol is the same sort of foolish thing. Is not renewable no matter what is claimed. Can't afford to make ethanol using only ethanol as one's energy source. Costs too much to try to use solar power to produce ethanol. Its simply not economically feasible without inexpensive and plentiful natural gas to make fertilizer for corn and to fire the ethanol distillery.

    The only economical means of producing H2 is from natural gas. While not oil it is an evil hydrocarbon. Is silly to use natural gas to make H2 for fuel when one can burn natural gas directly (and very cleanly) in slightly modified ignition engines.

    My daily driver is a Tesla Model S 85, I believe to be the first viable alternative to a conventional ICE automobile. Has honest 265+ mile range on battery. At 304 currently open Tesla Supercharger sites I can put 100 miles of range in the battery in about 20 minutes. The second 100 miles takes longer. Have driven 6 days this year of 500 miles per day spending just over 1.5 hours charging en route not counting charge before leaving and after arriving.

    At any given time Tesla has over 20 new Supercharger sites under construction and/or construction permit issued. Tesla makes a fantastic car but the Supercharger network is the crown jewel making the Tesla useful. Everyone else counts on the government or others to build the fueling network for them. Same we see here with H2. Same we see from Nissan and BMW with their EVs. Some dealers have fast chargers but not enough to drive their short range products from dealer to dealer.
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    I wasn't aware that hydrogen was most economically produced using natural gas. I assume that there are byproducts of this process that include other elements besides hydrogen and oxygen in that case.

    I also bet that this boondoggle is being funded by Pacific, Gas and Electric (also called Pacific, Graft and Explosion after blowing up a neighborhood in the city of San Bruno a few years ago), as their big moneymaker is selling cheap natural gas at a high markup, as approved by the state PUC, which was discovered this year to be in their pocket. I also bet that the cost of this facility will ultimately be paid by the utility's ratepayers - with the blessing of the PUC and the state's politicians, who love this kind of stuff as it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy - as long as someone else is paying for it, other than them.

    Unfortunately most all of our state legislators are lawyers and (as you know) lawyers are not all that big on science or long-range thinking. They also don't concern themselves with costs, because they always manage to get a nice chunk of money every time it moves from here to there.
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    Construction of the H2 station continues. This week they seem to be building a very sturdy, heavily-reinforced, two-story concrete structure, which leads me to believe that the plan is to actually manufacture hydrogen at this facility. Attached are photos showing the reinforcing and some more equipment. I noted that workmen were working on the building today. Since this is a Sunday and they must be getting double-time wages, I suspect that there is likely a hard deadline for completion of the facility. This has got to be a government-financed project.
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    So, it's over-engineered, over-budget and over-time?
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    This type of boondoggle contributes to the voter anger. Here we have crap airports and train safety (both overseen by The Port Authority NYNJ) and rather than fixing that, they spend time and resources creating fake traffic jams at the bridges (which they also oversee) as political retribution. Total horseshit and another example of why folks want to throw them all out.
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    But it makes it look as though they are doing something for the environment.

    Such angst, young Gerry!
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve n rose View Post
    But it makes it look as though they are doing something for the environment.
    Not doing anything good for the environment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy says:
    The barrier to lowering the price of high purity hydrogen is a cost of more than 35 kWh of electricity used to generate each kilogram of hydrogen gas. Hydrogen produced by steam reformation costs approximately three times the cost of natural gas per unit of energy produced. This means that if natural gas costs $6/million BTU, then hydrogen will be $18/million BTU. Also, producing hydrogen from electrolysis with electricity at 5 cents/kWh will cost $28/million BTU about 1.5 times the cost of hydrogen from natural gas. Note that the cost of hydrogen production from electricity is a linear function of electricity costs, so electricity at 10 cents/kWh means that hydrogen will cost $56/million BTU.

    114,000 BTU/gallon is good equivalent for gasoline so there is about 8.77 gallons of gasoline equivalent in 1 million BTU of natural gas or H2.

    Natural gas is currently selling for about $3 per million BTU.

    At 293 kWh per million BTU, retail 10 cents/kWh electricity costs $29.30 per million BTU. 0.38 kWh/mile is a good working number for consumption of a Tesla Model S including losses incurred during charging. Model S is big, heavy, and fast, so its a good worst-case.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_sbs.shtml says Toyota Mirai consumes 1 kg H2 per 66 miles. My Tesla could drive 92 miles on the 35 kWh of electricity used to produce that H2, and without the hassle and expense. And it can do it today.
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    Hey, I didn't say they were doing something good, just doing 'something'
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    Quote Originally Posted by N4HHE View Post
    Not doing anything good for the environment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy says:
    The barrier to lowering the price of high purity hydrogen is a cost of more than 35 kWh of electricity used to generate each kilogram of hydrogen gas. Hydrogen produced by steam reformation costs approximately three times the cost of natural gas per unit of energy produced. This means that if natural gas costs $6/million BTU, then hydrogen will be $18/million BTU. Also, producing hydrogen from electrolysis with electricity at 5 cents/kWh will cost $28/million BTU — about 1.5 times the cost of hydrogen from natural gas. Note that the cost of hydrogen production from electricity is a linear function of electricity costs, so electricity at 10 cents/kWh means that hydrogen will cost $56/million BTU.

    114,000 BTU/gallon is good equivalent for gasoline so there is about 8.77 gallons of gasoline equivalent in 1 million BTU of natural gas or H2.

    Natural gas is currently selling for about $3 per million BTU.

    At 293 kWh per million BTU, retail 10 cents/kWh electricity costs $29.30 per million BTU. 0.38 kWh/mile is a good working number for consumption of a Tesla Model S including losses incurred during charging. Model S is big, heavy, and fast, so its a good worst-case.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_sbs.shtml says Toyota Mirai consumes 1 kg H2 per 66 miles. My Tesla could drive 92 miles on the 35 kWh of electricity used to produce that H2, and without the hassle and expense. And it can do it today.
    And around here we are paying about 15 cents per kWh. That is why I suspect that this facility is being funded by the very same utility that sells both the natural gas and the electricity in our area - PG&E (Pacific, Graft and Explosion). The will be making a profit coming and going - at the expense of someone other than them (likely either their rate payers and/or the taxpayers).
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    This gas facility continues to fascinate me. I find it interesting that there is no billboard in front of the site showing a photo of the facility and stating something like "your tax dollars at work", as is true for the new deluxe two-story multi-million dollar fire station that is being constructed across the street . Here are the latest photos. The contractor is working 7 days a week and they are obviously in a rush to complete it before crummy winter weather arrives. This week they have removed the wooden scaffolding around the new concrete building and are building some internal walls inside the blockhouse. Also, the trailer with all of its H2 gas cylinders has disappeared and another large equipment cabinet, probably to house an electrical transformer, has been randomly placed on the site. I am really looking forward to seeing this facility finally completed. I suspect that it is not going to be any architectural masterpiece.
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    Progress continues. The H2 station is starting to look more like an oil refinery than a gas station.
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  38. #24
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    More photos from the Hydrogen Highway. Today the security fence blew down and I was able to enter the site and take some more photos. It sure looks like a H2 production plant to me. Fortunately a new warning sign has been posted advising me to be careful should there be a H2 leak and approach with caution. Personally, I think I would be approaching from the rear and finish my approach about 100 yards away.
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    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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    It's cool seeing the progress of this.
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  41. #26
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    Here is a link to some interesting and informative information regarding Hydrogen-fueled cars:
    https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy...cell-cars.html

    And here is a link to the locations of H2 stations in California: http://cafcp.org/stationmap

    This description is for the hydrogen station being built across from Alice's Restaurant, at the intersection of State highways 35 and 84: Woodside, 17287 Skyline Boulevard, Woodside, CA 94062:

    Station Type: Retail - In development
    Development Status: Commissioning
    Expected to Open: March 2017
    Hydrogen Source: Gaseous H2 Delivery
    Station Customer Service: (604) 904-0412
    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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  43. #27
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    Here is the latest Hydrogen Highway news: The H2 fueling station was supposed to be opened on March 17, but nothing has happened there since last year, other than a security fence blew down, providing a clearer picture of the station's complexity. It is a mystery to me what all of these pipes and gauges do - or are going to do some day. Perhaps they are not in any hurry to open the station as there are really no H2-powered vehicles to fuel up and they are waiting until someone buys one near enough to use the station.
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    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    All that plumbing is because it looks important and pricey for the bid wars.
    You should otta see the plumbing for a friends underfloor heating. Dang thang looks like the inside of a WWII submarine.
    A simple 2 zone heating system is very similar to what you have pictured.

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    Maybe nothing's happened because Donald has scared off all the workers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve n rose View Post
    Maybe nothing's happened because Donald has scared off all the workers.
    Or maybe there is no H2 left after being used to inflate his swelled head.
    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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  48. #31
    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    President Vacuous? Wadda ya wanna bet he can't spel it or tell you what it means.
    Besides his byproduct is BS not water vapor

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    Here is the latest information regarding the H2 station in Woodside, CA, at the Sky Londa center, across from Alice's Restaurant. The information is already out of date as the station is still closed, is fenced off and nothing has been done in the way of finishing the station since last November. What a boondoggle.
    https://www.almanacnews.com/news/201...in-may-or-june
    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

  50. #33
    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    A lot of folks seem to think the fuel receiver is full of water. I think more the Hydrogen gas is pumped into the vehicle tank and the hydrogen is used power the propulsion device. The end product being water vapor.
    Maybe like the big slow train to nowhere, it ain't working so fine.
    I noticed at Wally MArt they have electrical plug in stalls that replaced a few Handicap stalls. So if you are a young Millennial, you have precedence over crippled old farts. Isn't that special?

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    Quote Originally Posted by notacop View Post
    I noticed at Wally MArt they have electrical plug in stalls that replaced a few Handicap stalls. So if you are a young Millennial, you have precedence over crippled old farts. Isn't that special?
    EVSEs should never be installed in premium/desirable parking spots.
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  53. #35
    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    Quote Originally Posted by N4HHE View Post
    EVSEs should never be installed in premium/desirable parking spots.
    I'll second that. Taking up prime handicap positions is kinda dirty pool in my way of thinking.
    Like, dude, you get incentive to buy an expensive eco friendly car so you can park near the door at Wally World?
    Oh the humanity!
    Last edited by notacop; 07-11-17 at 05:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notacop View Post
    I'll second that. Taking up prime handicap positions is kinda dirty pool in my way of thinking.
    Like, dude, you get incentive to buy an expensive eco friendly car so you can park near the door at Wally World?
    Oh the humanity!
    There is a lot of idiocy going around. Willful ignorance and delusion.

    "Eco Friendly" isn't necessarily. Primarily its a fashion label. No matter how cheap and "renewable" the energy to travel one mile, $100k is on the pockets of those who produced my car, $100k they would not have had otherwise, $100k they are going to spend on any damn thing they please. In no way will this ever offset the Prius and gasoline I could have bought instead.

    Then again I don't have an F800S for rational reasons. Or FJR. Or dirtbikes. So one should not expect it of my Tesla. But then again its a heck of a lot of fun!

    Time will tell but I say "EVSE everywhere" (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment, i.e. "the charger") will prove to be a mistake. Vehicles with only 15 mile range are a joke, and the only justification for trying to put EVSEs everywhere. A viable EV must have sufficient range for a typical day, and a bit more for spare. This is not to say one must have 500 mile range. Tesla hit the nail on the head with 200+ mile range to get one through most any commuting day, and 120kW Superchargers every 100 miles or so on interstate. I can drive 540 miles in one day stopping for about 90 minutes total. Honestly I should stop three times for 30 minutes no matter what I drive that distance, not that I do but I should.

    As for putting EVSE in the back of the parking lot: If I really need a charge, I really need a charge and have no patience for those who will occupy precious EVSE spot just because its close to the door.

    Tesla often puts Superchargers in shopping center and hotel parking lots. Never close to the doors. But so far they are often 5 miles off the interstate (Louisville KY, Bowling Green KY).
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  56. #37
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    Here is what the Hydrogen Highway looks like today while peeking through the security fence.
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  57. #38
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    Attached are the latest photos of the Hydrogen Highway. I got some good shots since the security fence is starting to fall over. The plant is doing something as there is a yellow light flashing and every now and then a whistle sounds. But it still is not open or even finished. I guess the chicken is waiting for the egg to arrive.
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    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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  59. #39
    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    On the Foreskin of the science and pumping nothing. Ain't the future grand?

  60. #40
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    The Hydrogen Highway in Woodside is finally nearing completion, with the installation of the station's landscaping. But the highway is not cheap:

    HTEC Hydrogen Technology & Energy Corporation was awarded $2,125,000 to install a hydrogen refueling station in Woodside.

    And that wasn't enough, as the original Canadian developer went broke while building the station and had to sell or transfer the unfinished project to another builder so that more financing could be obtained before the station could be completed. It will be interesting to see who ends up operating the station. I hope it is someone who likes to sleep on the job. One of the owner's of Alice Restaurant believes that the station will be lucky to get one H2 vehicle visit a month.


    From this article: https://insideevs.com/california-approves-46-6-million-funding-hydrogen-fueling-stations-2-8-million-ev-charging-stations/


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  61. #41
    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    I wonder if the original contractor had to post a bond guaranteeing completion. most public entities require stuff like that.
    A friends son does web sites and the local city airport had him do the site for them and he had to post a bond. Another friend got a contract for urinary care products and he had to post a hefty bond to get the contract.
    Then again if the contractor was the elected officials brother in law, who knows?

  62. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by notacop View Post
    I wonder if the original contractor had to post a bond guaranteeing completion. most public entities require stuff like that.
    A friends son does web sites and the local city airport had him do the site for them and he had to post a bond. Another friend got a contract for urinary care products and he had to post a hefty bond to get the contract.
    Then again if the contractor was the elected officials brother in law, who knows?
    My understanding that the builder was a Canadian company who ran out of money during the build. It is not a publicly-owned station, but was to be leased to a private operator, although the public was picking up most of the tab through a government agency grant. My guess is that the bank that was financing the project foreclosed on the builder (I bet the project ran well over budget) and is completing the work using either the contractor's bond, more grant money, or just trying to recoup their construction loan money.
    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

  63. #43
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    This stop on the California Hydrogen Highway has finally been completed after years of construction at a cost of millions of dollars. And it is located where hydrogen-powered vehicles are unlikely to travel - across from Alice's Restaurant, located in the Santa Cruz Mountains, about 50 miles south of San Francisco. While the station may now be completed there appears to be no one to operate it, likely because they can't find anyone that can sleep long enough for a customer to arrive.
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    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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  65. #44
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    The door to the Hydrogen Highway was left open today and no one was around, so went in and took some photos of the very expensive equipment that does nothing but operate a light on top of one of the electrical cabinets. What a waste of money!
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  67. #45
    notacop is offline The original Schwartz Wald Troll
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    Kinda like the High Speed Rail Gov Moonbeam wanted? Hydrogen fuel so you can blow it out your ass?

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    Speaking of the Hydrogen Highway, it now floats: My newspaper yesterday had an article on the front page regarding a 70-foot long H2 fuel cell-powered catamaran that is currently under construction and will be used for commuting between Berkeley and San Francisco. It will carry up to 85 passengers. The water produced by the fuel cells will be recycled for onboard usage.
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    @Richard....thought of you and this thread when I saw this.

    https://jalopnik.com/behold-the-most...mpression=true
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  71. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeteor View Post
    @Richard....thought of you and this thread when I saw this.

    https://jalopnik.com/behold-the-most...mpression=true
    That is a kick! The H2 fueling station across from Alice's Restaurant in Sky Londa still is not operating, however its little yellow light that lit up three years ago is still blinking. At least is hasn't turned red yet.

    I might add that the vehicle of choice in the Santa Cruz Mountains is a diesel-powered 4-wheel drive pickup. The area is just not into hydrogen, especially as it is heavily wooded and hasn't burned for over 100 years.
    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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  73. #49
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    I stopped by to check out the Hydrogen Highway across from Alice's Restaurant today and found the door to the facility open, so I walked in and looked around. Right now the highway is growing tall weeds, the facility is making a lot of noise that sounds like a working refinery and the red warning light is lit. I kind of wonder who is paying the power bill, why the red light is on and why the gate was open?. What a waste of someone's money. Photos attached.
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    Richard - Current bikes: 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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